Squeaky

Hi Mick,

Thanks for your thoughts.  God's grace is really something that is hard for us to grasp.  If we can't grasp the grace He has for us as individuals, we likely will strugge extending grace to others.  It's a constant struggle and journey.

I didn't appreciate Lent until I returned to a Lutheran church a few years ago.  They were really in touch with the church seasons and changed their liturgy accordingly, which I found to be meaningful.  The Lenten services started with a soup supper, which brought people in such peaceful fellowship, and then continued with the subdued, somber, thoughtful services that are Lent.  It was beautiful.  It was weird for me, after being in charismatic churches since college, to find myself connecting through the worship style I had left to go the charismatic route for several years.  It's been a gradual and painfully slow discovery of how I'm meant to relate to God that's taking years to develop.  That was just one step along a path which seems infinite--and I suppose is.  

Blessings to you for your Lent and always!

I know.  Imagine.

The Blue Deacon hacker is without honor.

-Worf

Thanks for your response.

"we consider it sufficient to briefly comment that we consider his remarks wrong, and then move on to other things."

If your comments had ended there, as they did for Mick and Sam Hamilton on another thread, that would have more clearly conveyed what you wished to convey.

However, with the exception of those two posters, everyone else has qualified their outrage with "but they do it too."  Whether you like it or not or admit to it or not, it sounds more like a justification than outrage.  I really doubt you wouldn't see it that way if the tables were turned.  Next time a liberal says something outrageous, go to the conservative blogs and see if you don't get the same response with an expression of qualified outrage.

"Finally, if you're claiming that all men refuse to listen to the concerns of women, that is a guilt-by-association tactic, and that doesn't really encourage dialogue."

I'm pretty sure I specifically said the conservative men on this thread, not all men.  Regardless of how many women have expressed that contraceptives are important to women's health not only to prevent pregnancy, but for medical reasons, those concerns have been ignored.  Worse yet, the conservative men on this very site have stubbornly dismissed those concerns implying that it is only about sex.  Limbaugh did the very same thing, only far more crassly.

Well, I can say for certain he is redeemable.  I would hope we all are...but I suppose that also depends on one's theological bent, eh.  I'm convinced he is, though, and I'm convinced Jesus loves him, and He isn't finished with him yet, or any of us knuckleheads.  

Some think he is a Christian.  Maybe.  I don't know--all I know is the fruits he shows us.  If he is a Christian, then I would hope his fruits would be more fragrant than they are.  Either way, I pray God will impact him profoundly so that he can use his pulpit as a true witness to the love of Christ.  

So true.  Women need to have stronger voices against this crap, regardless of who it is aimed at.  

Jesse,

"--Squeaky, I think we're at the point now where you are starting to bear false witness...every conservative here and in the news has rebuked him. No one has defended him. Please stop making false allegations. "

Not really. I asked for links to Christian leaders making a strong stand against Limbaugh's words, and I have yet to see anyone post one.

I actually did a little googling myself. Nothing came up for Franklin Graham or James Dobson reactions about LImbaugh. Haven't checked tonight though, but where is the moral outrage over such crass, coarse, and dehumanizing speech? Perhaps people are too exhausted after the fighting the good fight over Happy Holidays.

The rebukes from conservatives here are hardly strong. They do more to justify Limbaugh than to rebuke him. It amazes me how conservatives will bend over backwards to minimize his words when they should be strongly rebuking him. "It's just a joke" "he's just being absurd" "he didn't mean it that way" "the left does it too".

Imagine a conservative Christian blog reacting to some crass words spoken by a prominent liberal. Imagine a liberal Christian coming on and saying, "Yes, that was a horrible thing to say. But don't forget that Limbaugh says stuff like that all the time." Does that sound like a sincere rebuke to you? Or does it sound more like justification of the crass comments? To me it sounds like a 3rd grader justifying his bad behavior by saying "he started it". I bet that reasoning didn't go over well for your kids when they were growing up, assuming you have kids, of course. Yet, almost every comment from a conservative on this thread (except for Mick, thank you Mick) does just that.

My understanding is the young woman was testifying to the many reasons women need contraceptives, not all of which are for sex, but sometimes because of medical reasons. Yet Limbaugh calls her a slut. I've tried time and time again to make the same point on this blog, and the conservative men here do not in any way acknowledge these purposes. Perhaps if a woman you knew and loved had to take contraceptives to soften the pain and discomfort of harsh periods or ovarian cysts, you might take deeper offense at someone assuming the worst about her.

This is, in fact, probably the most hurtful thing about this whole issue. Men refuse to listen to the needs of women, even when those needs revolve around medical reasons. And even if it were only about sex, I'm pretty sure you are aware that many women who have unwanted pregnancies end up raising the child alone, with the father suddenly making himself scarce. If men are so upset over women having contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, then perhaps they should take more personal responsibility themselves.

Instead, they dismiss all these concerns, make disparaging remarks about women wanting sex (as if they have no part in that), and when someone degrades a woman by assuming the worst, instead of defending that woman, they find ways to minimize the horrible words spoken about her. No woman deserves those words, whether intended as a joke or not.

So no, I don't accept them as just a joke. Nor do I accept his apology. I don't trust an alcoholic who has not hit bottom to stay away from the bottle, either.

I pray Rush finds the Prince of Peace and that he be overwhelmed by the love of the Savior for himself and for others. I pray for not just an apology, but true repentance and fruit in keeping with that repentance. What a witness that would be.

To those who would defend Limbaugh with "They do it to":

The question isn't so much what liberals do and whether or not liberals criticize liberals. The question really is who do Christian conservatives criticize?

I've seen Christian conservatives criticize people for saying "happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas. I've seen them criticize coarse language in music and on TV. In fact, you can bet that if the calls to the FCA to loosen the language standards on network TV were to go through, there would be a huge fight from the Christian community.

Then you have a person who repeatedly disparages others, who uses coarse and disgusting language, who sits in the seat of mockers, and we don't hear a peep. Not one word of rebuke.

Now, it could be that I don't have a TV and haven't really kept up with this that I haven't heard the strong response from conservative Christians, so if someone knows of some strong condemnation of Limbaugh's words spoken by say, James Dobson or Franklin Graham, please post a link.

Duh.  Election year, of course this will be used to score political points.  All the more reason for the right to sternly rebuke Limbaugh and send him the message that this disgusting rhetoric will no longer be tolerated from him.  What better way to undercut those so-called "points" than to come out with a strong statement of condemnation of his words and actions.  Sadly, the response has been milquetoaste at best.  Perhaps George Will is correct.  Republicans are afraid of Rush Limbaugh.  

Even regardless of political points, aren't the words and actions enough to inspire strong condemnation even from his supporters?  Enough is enough.  If this isn't enough, then what will be enough?  Why is it he gets a free pass to say whatever he wants regardless of who he hurts in the process?  Is this right?  Is this the example we want for our kids?  Especially for our daughters?  Do you have a daughter?  Is this how you would want her characterized by a middle aged man who demands she send him videos of herself?  Do you have a son?  Is this the way you would want him to treat and speak of women?  Are these the values you taught him?

The most disheartening aspect of this is when good Christians, brothers in Christ, brothers in Christ who should be standing in protection and defense of women, hear these words and shrug them off as no big deal.  

BTW:

This was Limbaugh's "apology"

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/rush-limbaugh-apologizes-calling-san...

Does it really sound that sincere to you?  Especially given his follow up actions?  If this were your daughter or a woman you cared about who was insulted in the way Limbaugh insulted this woman, would you accept this?

Thank you Mick, for saying what I wish every single conservative who posted here tonight should have said.

Thanks for being clear in your condemnation of Limbaugh's words.

Shultz shouldn't have made those comments.  I lost respect for Maher a long time ago.  I'm not a fan of Palin, but no one deserves to have such insults thrown at them.  

To play the schoolyard game, though...if you are going to claim it is disingenuous to be outraged about Limbaugh's words when people on the left have done the same thing as he, please consider this.  Limbaugh has been saying stuff like that, and getting away with it, and getting praised for it, and getting richly rewarded for it, years before anyone even heard of Ed Shultz or Bill Maher.  Perhaps if people on the left had heard some outrage at Limbaugh's words when he was first gaining popularity, we all might be demanding better.  As it is, the disengenousness you accuse the left of is reflected right back at the right.   

The right could seize the opportunity to make the first move to cry out for decency.  A sincere call for decency would take responsibility for their own words and actions without pointing up the faults of the other side.  When I see that happen from either side, I will know they are serious.  Not until then.