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Comments
Why is anyone on a Christian site like Sojourners talking at length about a non Christian calling someone a "slut". That seems to be the point of not following Christ. I live however I want and make my own way in life. Maybe, Sojourners needs to go a little deeper into this Christ business. There really is more.
Man, I've been punched, stomped on, ridiculed, called "stupid" and "too intellectual" at the same time, had my ideas shot down, pushed to the outskirts of the church, been fully included, preached, told I am not ready to preach, cried, been angry, been upset, seen lives changed, seen God's healing, seen God's redemption, shaken my head in disbelief that Christ is still present in the community, seen drug addicts give their testimony of the power of Christ, seen pastor's break down and cry in front of the congregation, seen entire churches come forward for an altar call to simply repent, been filled with God's Spirit, and been left longing.
The church is the body of Jesus Christ on earth. And as long as people still believe we are called to meet together, they will show up. Unless we come up with a viable alternative, I find it dangerous to cut myself off from the body. If I stopped going, those who are truly seeking God would be left with a void, because it takes my gifts and others to make the body complete. God will judge those who exalt themselves. Much of the problem is that we have made the gospel neutral, therefore it can not transform and judge those who neutralize it.
Also, gnosticism was birthed with the same ideas. Remember, nothing is new.
I really can not believe that there is even a thought that this should be an idea that we play around with. Sojourners would never write an article about Christians leaving the political systems in America and getting back into serving in their respective churches. But, leaving the church? Scripture has something to say about this.
So, this article is to expose people's fears of the "Rapture" by subtly poking fun at them? Hmmm. The funny part is that non-believers do not differentiate between Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians, between Progressives and Traditionalists. As a matter of fact, most non-believers I know do not think very much of what Christians think about each other at all. I think it is time to lay aside the things which make for divisions and actually start proclaiming the Good News and lovingly suffer for it. If Christians can not love other Christians who they disagree with, then we are all sunk. God help us.
BTW--It is obvious the writer disagrees with the prediction of the "Rapture". I would know what the writer thinks of the parousia? Instead of making fun, how about actually engaging Scripture? I alsomdo not believe in a rapture, but I must do justice to the text of Scripture.
There are masculine and feminine words in Hebrew though and they do not necessarily classify directly with "man-ness" or "woman-ness" as we understand humanity, BUT these words absolutely attempt to form identity with their function. Words are extremely important, because they're about how human beings identify themselves in relation to each other and God. Making everything neutral does not do justice to humanity.
But the most pre-eminent theologian in the world today also has written an article about some of the issues you are speaking about.
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Women_Service_Church.htm
Oh touche. lol
I really don't understand why Sojourners does not realize that human beings form identity two ways, being for and being against something, at the same time. Christ revealed the true enemy to us (against) and then demonstrated what we seek after (for) and the Apostle Paul then reiterated it throughout his entire ministry. I mean, think about it, so many writers on Sojourners can only react against what they do not like and then write articles against it. It's called oppositional logic. We as Christians should really be more focused on our true enemy, but that would take actual prayer, fasting, and communion with each other. I mean, come on! If Jesus didn't directly overthrow the Roman Empire, but actually said that a Roman Centurion had more faith than ALL of Israel, can we stop the rhetoric!! The Romans were far more brutal than our political parties. I mean, read Revelation.
Sojourners actually causes more conservative minded Christians who might be on the fence per se to want to identify closer with the Republican party, just based upon how much Sojourners bashes them. I'm telling you how human beings operate. I have not voted Republican since 1988 and I almost sometimes have some desire to do so, simply because I find Sojo to be, plain and simple, mean.
That may be the best question that I have seen posted on Sojourners?
This is pop politics at best. I remembering listening Rush Limbaugh in 1995 because some folks at my church were enamored by him and I listened to ONE radio show and I said, "I don't get it, Rush Limbaugh is too proud to be a Christian." I know, I know, we're not supposed to judge. Well I did, because fruit is a result of the life we live in Christ. Are we really still debating this? What's the litmus test on Sojourners for Christianity? Just being a resident of the U.S.A.?
Here is an excellent N.T. Wright article on the Resurrection.
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Italian_Bishops_Christ_Risen_First_Fr...
I think you might enjoy reading N.T. Wright. He talks at length about the importance of our bodies.
But I am always perplexed as to why people think "spiritual" is disembodied? We are bodies and God created humanity to be in relationship to God, to one another, in our bodies. The violence of sin is always manifest toward another's body, but that which is "born of Spirit" is not set on the flesh, i.e. the sinful nature of humanity, but set on the allowing the kingdom of God to be born in our midst. The kingdom is "in the midst of" you. Jesus is the kingdom and he was saying to the disciples, "the kingdom is in the midst of you", i.e. me.
If Jesus did not rise bodily from the dead, then the outworking is that we will not give our lives (bodies) as a living sacrifice for the sake of those suffering.
mjmiddleton's comment about Baptism is true. Baptism is us declaring with our bodies the importance of our identification with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. It is calling to memory the narrative history that God had brought humanity out of slavery; physical, spiritual, mental, emotional and into the peace, joy, love of the life giving Spirit. Spirit comes from outside humanity and enters "in the midst of our shared humanity."
That which is born of sin (flesh) can no nothing other than sin, that which is born of Spirit can no nothing other than Spirit. The Apostle Paul uses flesh in about seven different ways, but the main way of using flesh is to understand that it is not the "flesh", those who descended from a specific heritage, lineage which inherit God's kingdom, but those who descend from God's Spirit. This is NEVER disembodied. God is Spirit and was manifest in the bodily existence of Jesus.
"You have seen me, you have seen the Father." Thank God that Plato was not correct and God loved this material world.
I am one of the people working directly with the "poor" people who are labeled as such and I am saying this as a result of 13 years of this work. Our Christian duty is to understand that the powers as such can ONLY be defeated through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ and as we as a community of faith embody that message of the Good News. I really have no issue with anyone who works with "poor" people as long as they make EXACTLY the same amount that the "poor" people they say the serve, make, which is about, $8088 a year. I make less than that.
I have little to no tolerance for government agencies, like Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services who will put a person in a straight jacket the second they think the person has a mental illness. We have given over our responsibility to people who are not Christians, nor do believe in forgiveness, kindness, gentleness, and humility. I have seen the complete demonization of "poor" people the second one of these people asserts themselves and has an opinion about the course of their life. I have heard not one or two, but hundreds of social workers make the statement, "Shut up, you don't know what's best for your life!" I know this flies in the face of our sentimentality about creating a utopia, but unless Christians are willing to give up their lifestyles for the sake of these "poor" people, it is complete hypocrisy.
The work that I have done was with supportive housing through moving homeless people into permanent housing, so I think I have some experience with government agencies, as well as the criminal justice system, because I advocated for people in court in speaking with defense attorney's and prosecutors. See, I can work within the system and understand that the system itself only looks out for its own interests in providing nice, cushy jobs with very nice benefits for the social workers.
I know what "poor" people want, they want to be allowed the autonomy and self determination that the "do gooders" have in their own lives. They want to have a voice which says, "I know what's best for my life, not YOU!" And with that starting point, social services would be so much better off.
The whole debate stems from one thing, which is the fact that Americans believe in the Enlightenment that the only thing needed for people to believe in God is an intellectual or rational assent to propositions about God which seems confirmed by the statement, "Not all Christians hold these views", and that statement usually ends up pointing people in the direction of another set of rational propositions about God. Also, I do think that God utilizes all forms of the gospel to bring about redemption, because I do believe in rational thought, but the gospel that people are usually not too found of is that God is truly manifest in Jesus and died hanging from a cross to disarm power. There is a way which God disarmed the powers, but it will NEVER come through Washington D.C. It scares me though to think that Christians do not think that we may be the third person in the statement, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are YOU!?" Acts 19.15.
It does not matter what party a person belongs to, because as soon as the assent to power happens, the person is obligated to perform the dictates and swear allegiances to that position. Is a person willing to center their lives in the Good News of Jesus Christ? The apostle Paul did not speak directly about positions of power, but used rhetoric to demonstrate how entangled people's minds were in idolatry because of their continued quest for philosophical ideologies which really are only about developing a superior ethic and care nothing about true oppression. Paul would say that if a person is not embodying the cross as their ethic and as the only way toward knowledge of God, then their minds are still set on the desire for earthly power. We still live so dualistically in modernity but Christ came to bring the reign of heaven upon earth, but I hope and pray that it does not look like our two party system. How boring would the reign of heaven be if politicians had the last word. At least N.T. Wright and other theologians think the same thing.
And I love how people talk about "poor" people on Sojourners, as if "poor" people can be labeled. What makes a person "poor"? Economic status? Do people call "poor" people, poor to their face? Does Sojourners think that the image of God is represented by these "poor" people standing in lines and having their names only be represented by a Social Services number? What about the gifts, callings, and unique traits that money can not buy, that are given to these "poor" people by God? I say, stop identifying people as "poor" based specifically upon socio-economic traits. Anyone, no matter how much money they have should be allowed to stand up and speak for themselves. I don't think "poor" people should be very pleased to know that Sojourners acts like they can dictate or speak for them.
This is why Christianity when entangled with public policy goes bad. Christianity says, the poorest among you has been bestowed with the greatest gifts, and God will grant that person a voice to put to shame those who elevate themselves by their education, status, or money. "God chose the weak to put to shame the wise." If this is true, then let the gospel do its work and stop speaking for other people.
They can think for themselves!
Talk about modernity in a nutshell. Forgetting the story that shaped us, i.e. how our parents and grandparents struggled and found the redemption and love in Christ and starting as if nothing happened before the present. How do we embody what your talking about without morphing into gnostics who hold knowledge about God and do not care what is happening with other people. Remember, the gnostics were not those who loved people more, but held onto an inner spirituality in order to justify their pursuit of pleasures. Because it would be great to have both, inner spirituality and pleasure. I would love to know from a socio-economic standpoint, who would embrace your idea more? Just curious.
Agreed, that is a huge issue in churches. I personally have found that men like to build things and when men and women for that matter are connected with a task, not simply intellectual assent, i.e. trying to conceptualize God in an abstract sense people are much more grounded in the mission of the gospel. The church really has followed societies lead in moving from our hands working together to our minds alone. I mean, if we really started to understand this, it would shift what we believe about how human being form identities. We are not created for purposes which we can create through philosophical pondering. Descartes was not correct. lol
Scat, thanks for the thoughts.
I can remember my freshman year in college at KU and I had a professor who was attempting to refute Christianity and even though I personally was not a follower of Christ at that time, I stood up in the middle of class and attempted to diminish his claims. (I actually cringe sometimes when I think about it, lol) It was funny though because some people thanked me after class. I had no idea what I was talking about, but I think my intentions were good.
Even though I personally was not a follower, (I am one now though) I still had extreme loyalty to the people in my life who were followers of Jesus Christ and this professor was in my opinion, refuting them, so I spoke up for them. I guess I'm trying to say that the church as body of Christ is really, really important even for people that are not within it at any given time in their life. The church acts as a link which connects people to other people in numerous ways, some mysterious and because of this reason, I can not understand why it's not spoken of in more important ways, especially on Sojourners. I mean, some of the most rabid conservatives and liberals were both in Jesus' traveling crew. I think it's dangerous that people reject those with whom they grew together with in the church for the sake of the American experience of college life. This identity formation as you say is actually attempting to form identity against Christ and reforming them back into the body might never happen again. I find it to be extremely sad and that is why people like Bonhoeffer considered discipleship and imperative for church life. It will hold people throughout their life in Christ. Just a thought. peace.
Hypocrisy is interesting. I never really cared that much that Christians were "hypocrites" because I thought that was the point. If you're not a hypocrite, you're probably not a confessional Christian. Of course I know that the author is referring to claiming God's love for me, but neglecting the "weightier matters of the law". But, never does God call Christians to public policy or even charity for that matter, but to complete surrender in following Christ and allowing ourselves to be formed in the image of Christ, which is the church.
Also, it's not really complicated why so many students leave church. First, mainly because American teenagers actually begin to develop an identity after high school and finally find one around age 40. Maybe, pop culture does have some power.
Second, students predominantly are not given responsibility in churches, mainly because churches do not think in terms of discipleship. And that goes for High Church, Middle Church, or Low Church. They just don't do it.
And third, students who go to college begin to experience far more than the human body can handle causing sensory overload. Why is this important? Because once our senses to pleasure are triggered, church becomes boring and mundane. Even reading about new ideas stimulates the senses. Excite me, excite me I said! Colleges understand this fact, I wish churches also did. Hey, maybe it could be part of a discipleship program.
But, don't worry because those exact same students will come back to church in droves when they get married and start having children, because they don't want their kids to be like them. Oh, it's a vicious cycle.
Yes, I work in Youth Ministry.
Both sides sit in judgment of the other because both sides have refused to bear evil into themselves, die, and allow for transformation of Jesus Christ to take place. Once people decide that it's their voice that transforms and NOT the power of the word of Christ, they have recreated the same system which they criticize. Anyone who does not hold a high view of the importance of forgiveness, both socially and personally is not ministering the gospel of reconciliation. The church has and always will need to address issues in society because the church sits in the midst of society. People that come into the body of Jesus Christ better be sure that they are not leading people astray, whoever these ministers are.
This is actually a well written article. To know who Jesus chooses today is to look at the vast array of churches across the world. If anyone can pin down one group as the chosen group, wow, they have some amazing gift.
And, I think that not judging issues related to greater society is extremely important as long as the church acts like the church, i.e. the very body of Christ. When the church is weak because it no longer proclaims and embodies the mission of the Good News, it will allow the zero sum values of the world to form it. That means, it must live in humble obedience to Jesus. Jesus is real, he is not simply my own perceptions or images of what I want reality to look like. And when we lay that down, we can then suffer patiently with people who are truly suffering in this world and not allow the ideologies of the world to form our minds. I'm sorry, but I do not think our political systems care at all about people. Maybe that comes from the years I have worked with them.
I have also lived with the conservative and the liberal Christians and both have some great thoughts and some truly rabid ones too. But the one's throughout history who have transformed their societies, tended to be less ideological and more filled with the very presence of the God of peace. Those people or even churches were places that everyone wanted to be and simply be around because of the peace their lives emenate. There is a difference.
I don't know if OneCommandment will read this post, since it is a few days late, but Universal Consciousness is not a new idea, but espoused by the philosophical traditions of all Empires (past and present), so a great question would be, "What type of empire or kingdom today espouses 'Universal Consciousness''? The tradition of the universalization of reason is alive and well and I have attended various conferences on Globalization that are completely enamoured by this idea. If people could just grab a hold of reason (as we know it, their lives would be so much better.) I believe this idea has transgressed itself because it really teaches tolerance of evil in the face of the true suffering of human beings.
Love must never be misplaced by those who do not want to suffer through patient perserverance that Christ's cross is the true manifestation of love. The idea that if people ONLY appeal to the universalization of love through the hope that people become "conscious" of this love, this is really the same false truth that drove all the past worldly empires. The gospel is Good News and is a free gift, but people must proclaim it and it will cost people everything, in relation to the patterns of what we value, if they do and especially, if they do not. Just a thought.
When people either engage with theology or discuss the various 'systems of belief', the core of Israel's life within the context of Jesus' ministry is usually not the centerpoint. Liberation theology is not new, Jews in the 1et century believed it and were also members of Jesus' closest disciples. I think that if people stopped caring so much about political candidates who are only co-opting religious language to get votes, and actually looked at the fact that there truly is nothing new under the sun, then it would inspire Christians to be true to their local church and immediate communities, dismantling the system of oppression caused by people only thinking about big issues and not embodying them literally outside their front doors.
This is a general synopsis, not a statement toward anyone.
Amen.
Romans 12
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Humble Service in the Body of Christ
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Love in Action
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
And then, Romans 13 can be embodied, as long as Romans 12 is being lived out. One can not live without the other.
"Do not conform to the patterns of the world..."
Until the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant Church in general starts to preach that they are CAUSING Christians to identify more with the patterns of the world than with Jesus the Christ, they can live out Lent for centuries and it will have no impact. I wish the Roman Catholic church had a High View of church, they would be heard to a greater degree. We are in a time when God is calling people to seek after God's will which may or may not coincide with those who call themselves God's representatives and yet as complete members of Christ's church, definitely not without.
Sorry to use Scripture on Sojourners.
I reread my comment and realize that it was not fair for me to categorize you or your thoughts. My apologies. Blessings.
So, i posted something, but then I re-read your last comment and realized that you're a Marcionite, so I probably figured it wouldn't matter anyway. Blessings.