OK, I can point to 4 dozen articles written by Jim Wallis or his staff that suggest that the government is the ultimate answer and that cutting entitlements is morally wrong. I challenge you to find me one article where Jim or staff talks about doing something to help someone in need and invites others to join in.
OK, I've provided one example of what you asked for and am looking for others. Can you in return find me an explicit example of a liberal on this blog who actually talks about doing something constructive and inviting others to join him/her instead of demanding social activism?
If you need more "examples" I know I can find a number of them coming from Kansas. But it may take me some time to get a link to the old blog to show the examples that I'm thinking of.
My favorite antidote of liberal bloggers rejecting ideas of helping the poor IF IT CAME FROM A CONSERVATIVE was my discussion with BlueDeacon when I first came on the site. At the time I didn't realize the vitriol for conservatives and conservative ideas. That particular discussion was why the African American community didn’t support vouchers and why African American churches didn’t with white Evangelicals on private schools. We talked about how much private organizations (funded by rich people) were trying to invest in urban neighborhoods but were stymied because of the lack of assistance coming from African American churches. Basically, Deacon said he would reject anything coming from conservatives because he didn’t trust them.
The phrase "more entitlements equals moral rigfhtness and less entitlements equals evil and lack of justice." comes from all the articles during the time period when the House of Representatives were trying to find a way to reduce spending. Shortly after Paul Ryan produced a strawman for a budget there was this circle of concern asking for a hedge of protection around the "least of these". In the end, the discussions all came down to less spending on entitlements is morally wrong and more spending is morally riight, even though more spending would lead to a increased wealth gap.
Joshua recently posted an article about American's being more charitable than other countries (even though 50% of Americans live in poverty).. If you Google giving levels you will see that American individuals, in total, gave 1.58% of GDP to charity last year. So you do the math. For the federal and state government to give that much to charity we would need to include Social Security and farm aid in the figures.
By the definition of this blog, if you are giving to charity you must be rich. Recent reports claim that 75% of Americans gave money to charity last year. Statistically, we know that self proclaiming conservatives give twice as much to charity as self proclaiming liberals (as a percentage of income). If you question that, you can Google that as well. But for our conversation, I used the term rich conservatives because the bloggers on this site assume that you are a conservative if you talk about giving to charity instead of focusing on demanding that the government provide for the needs (and always asking someone with more income than writer to pay for the increased entitlement spending).
I’ve been following this blog for a number of years and I must say that I have never read an article, or a liberal blogger on this site, talk about something the author was doing to help the poor and invite others to join. Not once. In, fact, when someone mentions personally helping the poor or supporting charities they are often ridiculed because the liberal bloggers assume that they must be conservatives if they are doing instead of social activating. And when a conservative mentions helping the poor, the liberals reject the idea out of hand, if they believe the source of the idea is from a conservative. One of the many examples is school vouchers or creating private schools to bring urban children out of poverty.
What I have seen on this blog, and consistently, is the belief that more entitlements equals moral rightness and less entitlements equals evil and lack of justice. And this is stated even though it has been demonstrated that entitlements widen the wealth gap.
And I’ve never seen this blog praise rich people even though articles referenced by the writers demonstrate that America is more charitable than any other nations and that rich conservative individuals give more in total than state and federal governments. (The only exception is that BlueDeacon recently stood up from Jim Wallis claiming that Jim may be rich but he has the heart of someone in the 99%).
So in summary, I’m not convinced that this blog has anything to do with helping the poor.
There is nothing wrong with being a progressive blog or a conservative blog. There is nothing wrong with talk radio expressing opinions on what should or should not be done about a problem.
I believe the issue that Karl has raised is that when we misuse facts to state our case or use hyperbole, it causes the problems that Jim Wallis says need to be solved.
I don't need to start listening to Rush, NPR or MSNBC to know if the problem that Jim has identified is also deeply rooted in this blog.
And by the same logic, to ask the question "does God truly want a few billionaires to have more wealthy than 2 billion people who live on less than $2/day?" is riddiculus, if it was a serious question. We know that the person who wrote that question, and all of us who are reading it, have more wealth than the 2 billion poor of the world.
The left wants to separate out the "millionaires and billionaires" so that we can feel good about our own selfish consumption and justify it by pointing to others that have even more. I don't see this as a Biblical position.
You are being sarcastic, right? My 16-year old daughter, who has $46 saved up from baby sitting, has more wealth than 2 billion people who live on less than $2/day. Are you suggesting that God doesn't want her to be responsible and save that $46? Her babysitting doesn't cause suffering in other parts of the world so why should we demonize her? And if not her, why someone who has $500 saved, or a million, or even a billion?
No one has said that poverty, as defined by the federal government, is exclusively or solely caused by personal choices. Certainly, there are structural issues that are in play. But Joshua's article doesn't list or discuss any.
To understand what is going on one must first answer the question: "who are the 150 million Americans living below the line of poverty". Nearly 30 million of that 150 million is college students. Another large portion are wealthy people who have low incomes, on that particular year, because their income is solely dividends or capital gains from selling assets. Many of the people in this category are retirees but a good many are not. But the largest portion of the 150 million are what others on this blog have called "the working poor". These people have chosen a particular career path, or have switched career paths, because they value something more than money. All the people mentioned are in poverty at that given point in time because of their personal choices.
Now, like you said, there are some people that are in poverty because of structural issues that might even feel enslaved. But for Joshua and other liberals to suggest that we have 150 million people in this country that fit that category is just a blatant mischaracterization of the situation.
It is little wonder that the mainstream christian community discounts what is said by the editors of this blog.
And no one has said that the poor are being suckered into pursuing materialistic advertising that seems to define the American dream. What I’m saying is that materialism has become such a fundamental value to liberals, including those on this blog, that they just can’t stand to see the working poor living out lives with different values than they hold dear.
In “It’s a Wonderful Life”, Bert, Ernie and Martini are working poor people that would never have a chance to own homes if it weren’t for George Bailey. And George dreams of traveling the world and seeing things that aren’t possible for the working poor to do. George gets an offer by Mr. Potter to become instantly rich and he turns down the offer. At the end of the movie we are told that someone with relationships has more wealth than someone with money. It is interesting that it is Mr. Potter that scoffs at the working poor and looks down on them.
It is my assertion that Joshua is uncomfortable with the existence of so many working poor because he can’t put aside his own materialistic values long enough to see that the working poor or most often better off than the other 50% of society that is climbing the economic ladder.
Yes, scat, there are people dying of disease in America and that is a tragedy. But Joshua’s comments were not about that tragedy. Joshua sites an article that says the number of poor has risen sharply in the past 3 years and now, at 50% of our population, it is at a level that we can’t abide. Yes, I’ll grant you that health care costs have also rise sharply in the past 3 years. But there is no connection. Rising health care costs is not the reason why 50% of Americans live below the poverty line and the increase number of poor is not the cause of the increasing health care costs. Nor can you say that the tragedy of disease and death is primarily afflicting the poor. You can’t even say that most of the poor don’t have health insurance or that the lack of health insurance is a problem only for those in poverty.
So I’m not sure why you are trying to make that connection unless you have some statistics you haven’t shared or if you also disagree with Joshua but are trying to change the subject because you don’t know how to defend his statements.
Every Christmas we watch the movie "It's a Wonderful Life". The main character, George Bailey, raises his family in poverty even though he is offered a chance to become rich. The villan, Mr. Potter, is clearly among the top 1%. The point of the movie is that you aren't poor if you have friends. In fact, it could be said that the theme of the movie is that it is preferable to be poor and make the right choices in life than to pursue economic advancement at the expense of the more important things.
I challenge you, living the life of George Bailey is not the same as having a broken arm.
Earlier today the Pope lamented all the "superficial glitter" surrounding Christmas and urged the faithful to embrace the true meaning of Christmas.
I think this is an important lesson that we need to apply to how we live life in general. We have gotten so caught up in trying to consume and amass more and more wealth that we have forgotten the true meaning of life. It is not about our income or wealth. But yet we look at those that are poor, either by choice or because it is forced on them, and we say it is such an awful thing that we shouldn't abide it being so. Maybe the Biblical answer is that more of us should be choosing to be poor and to live more simple lives because it is more in line with what God intends for us. Is it best for us to tell ourselves that God wants us to be wealthy, or at least, not poor. But why is it we believe that? Is there something truly wrong with living a simple life?
Now, to be clear, I believe part of our establishing the Kingdom of God involves pushing back against disease, hunger and injustice. There is so much work to do to stop aids and malaria and bring clean water to Africa. But that is not the situation in America when we talk about 50% of Americans living in poverty.
And I'm also not saying that the poor in America, or those of us that choose to live more simple lives, don't face challenges or live without some luxuries that our neighbor's enjoy. But here is my question: is your life spent trying to hang onto luxuries and conveniences really better than those that live in poverty?
My suggestion is that instead of being appalled that so many Americans "live in poverty" we should start being appalled that so many Americans are enslaved to the American dream!
Hazel, I think you are on to something. The liberal agenda is based on wanting to isolate themselves from the poor and the problems of the poor. And that is why they champion activism that calls for the government to solve the problem. And that may well be why Valerie and Joshua are uncomfortable with so many in our society being classified as "poor".
Wow! Powerful presentation on how free enterprise is morally superior to other systems. They make some great points about the dangers of decoupling success from effort. I liked how the speakers laid out a Biblical foundation for free enterprise and didn't just rely on theory or practical observations.
This video is the most enlightning of any post I've seen by Jim Wallis.
It's not a broadside on "Evangelical Republicans" it is a braodside against Evangelicals period. The Barna Research Group has determined, through polling research, that 4% of our country can be classified as having a Biblical World View. Of those classifying themselves as "conservatives", 10% have a Biblical World View. Of those classifying themselves as "liberals", one half of one percent have a Biblical World View.
I think we can safely identify Evangelical Christians predominantly with conservative thought, even though some would argue that conservatives often have the Biblically correct position on policy but don't always have the Biblically correct priority.
Official rhetoric has helped fuel an escalation of tension between the United States and Iran. Do recent negotiations mark a change in direction, or just a temporary detour from the highway to military attack?
Comments
IF MLK were alive today he would be a social conservative. Wouldn't it be great if all those that say that MLK is their hero would follow his beliefs!
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/01/16/dr_king_s_niece_says_he_d_b...
OK, I can point to 4 dozen articles written by Jim Wallis or his staff that suggest that the government is the ultimate answer and that cutting entitlements is morally wrong. I challenge you to find me one article where Jim or staff talks about doing something to help someone in need and invites others to join in.
OK, I've provided one example of what you asked for and am looking for others. Can you in return find me an explicit example of a liberal on this blog who actually talks about doing something constructive and inviting others to join him/her instead of demanding social activism?
If you need more "examples" I know I can find a number of them coming from Kansas. But it may take me some time to get a link to the old blog to show the examples that I'm thinking of.
My favorite antidote of liberal bloggers rejecting ideas of helping the poor IF IT CAME FROM A CONSERVATIVE was my discussion with BlueDeacon when I first came on the site. At the time I didn't realize the vitriol for conservatives and conservative ideas. That particular discussion was why the African American community didn’t support vouchers and why African American churches didn’t with white Evangelicals on private schools. We talked about how much private organizations (funded by rich people) were trying to invest in urban neighborhoods but were stymied because of the lack of assistance coming from African American churches. Basically, Deacon said he would reject anything coming from conservatives because he didn’t trust them.
The phrase "more entitlements equals moral rigfhtness and less entitlements equals evil and lack of justice." comes from all the articles during the time period when the House of Representatives were trying to find a way to reduce spending. Shortly after Paul Ryan produced a strawman for a budget there was this circle of concern asking for a hedge of protection around the "least of these". In the end, the discussions all came down to less spending on entitlements is morally wrong and more spending is morally riight, even though more spending would lead to a increased wealth gap.
Joshua recently posted an article about American's being more charitable than other countries (even though 50% of Americans live in poverty).. If you Google giving levels you will see that American individuals, in total, gave 1.58% of GDP to charity last year. So you do the math. For the federal and state government to give that much to charity we would need to include Social Security and farm aid in the figures.
By the definition of this blog, if you are giving to charity you must be rich. Recent reports claim that 75% of Americans gave money to charity last year. Statistically, we know that self proclaiming conservatives give twice as much to charity as self proclaiming liberals (as a percentage of income). If you question that, you can Google that as well. But for our conversation, I used the term rich conservatives because the bloggers on this site assume that you are a conservative if you talk about giving to charity instead of focusing on demanding that the government provide for the needs (and always asking someone with more income than writer to pay for the increased entitlement spending).
Duh,
I’ve been following this blog for a number of years and I must say that I have never read an article, or a liberal blogger on this site, talk about something the author was doing to help the poor and invite others to join. Not once. In, fact, when someone mentions personally helping the poor or supporting charities they are often ridiculed because the liberal bloggers assume that they must be conservatives if they are doing instead of social activating. And when a conservative mentions helping the poor, the liberals reject the idea out of hand, if they believe the source of the idea is from a conservative. One of the many examples is school vouchers or creating private schools to bring urban children out of poverty.
What I have seen on this blog, and consistently, is the belief that more entitlements equals moral rightness and less entitlements equals evil and lack of justice. And this is stated even though it has been demonstrated that entitlements widen the wealth gap.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/11/28/entitlement_not_tax_cuts_widen_the_wealth_gap_112189.html
And I’ve never seen this blog praise rich people even though articles referenced by the writers demonstrate that America is more charitable than any other nations and that rich conservative individuals give more in total than state and federal governments. (The only exception is that BlueDeacon recently stood up from Jim Wallis claiming that Jim may be rich but he has the heart of someone in the 99%).
So in summary, I’m not convinced that this blog has anything to do with helping the poor.
There is nothing wrong with being a progressive blog or a conservative blog. There is nothing wrong with talk radio expressing opinions on what should or should not be done about a problem.
I believe the issue that Karl has raised is that when we misuse facts to state our case or use hyperbole, it causes the problems that Jim Wallis says need to be solved.
I don't need to start listening to Rush, NPR or MSNBC to know if the problem that Jim has identified is also deeply rooted in this blog.
And by the same logic, to ask the question "does God truly want a few billionaires to have more wealthy than 2 billion people who live on less than $2/day?" is riddiculus, if it was a serious question. We know that the person who wrote that question, and all of us who are reading it, have more wealth than the 2 billion poor of the world.
The left wants to separate out the "millionaires and billionaires" so that we can feel good about our own selfish consumption and justify it by pointing to others that have even more. I don't see this as a Biblical position.
You are being sarcastic, right? My 16-year old daughter, who has $46 saved up from baby sitting, has more wealth than 2 billion people who live on less than $2/day. Are you suggesting that God doesn't want her to be responsible and save that $46? Her babysitting doesn't cause suffering in other parts of the world so why should we demonize her? And if not her, why someone who has $500 saved, or a million, or even a billion?
No one has said that poverty, as defined by the federal government, is exclusively or solely caused by personal choices. Certainly, there are structural issues that are in play. But Joshua's article doesn't list or discuss any.
To understand what is going on one must first answer the question: "who are the 150 million Americans living below the line of poverty". Nearly 30 million of that 150 million is college students. Another large portion are wealthy people who have low incomes, on that particular year, because their income is solely dividends or capital gains from selling assets. Many of the people in this category are retirees but a good many are not. But the largest portion of the 150 million are what others on this blog have called "the working poor". These people have chosen a particular career path, or have switched career paths, because they value something more than money. All the people mentioned are in poverty at that given point in time because of their personal choices.
Now, like you said, there are some people that are in poverty because of structural issues that might even feel enslaved. But for Joshua and other liberals to suggest that we have 150 million people in this country that fit that category is just a blatant mischaracterization of the situation.
It is little wonder that the mainstream christian community discounts what is said by the editors of this blog.
And why are liberals "uncomfortable" with the existence of poor people?
http://sojo.net/blogs/2011/12/21/charitable-disconnect?page=1#comment-331084
And no one has said that the poor are being suckered into pursuing materialistic advertising that seems to define the American dream. What I’m saying is that materialism has become such a fundamental value to liberals, including those on this blog, that they just can’t stand to see the working poor living out lives with different values than they hold dear.
In “It’s a Wonderful Life”, Bert, Ernie and Martini are working poor people that would never have a chance to own homes if it weren’t for George Bailey. And George dreams of traveling the world and seeing things that aren’t possible for the working poor to do. George gets an offer by Mr. Potter to become instantly rich and he turns down the offer. At the end of the movie we are told that someone with relationships has more wealth than someone with money. It is interesting that it is Mr. Potter that scoffs at the working poor and looks down on them.
It is my assertion that Joshua is uncomfortable with the existence of so many working poor because he can’t put aside his own materialistic values long enough to see that the working poor or most often better off than the other 50% of society that is climbing the economic ladder.
Yes, scat, there are people dying of disease in America and that is a tragedy. But Joshua’s comments were not about that tragedy. Joshua sites an article that says the number of poor has risen sharply in the past 3 years and now, at 50% of our population, it is at a level that we can’t abide. Yes, I’ll grant you that health care costs have also rise sharply in the past 3 years. But there is no connection. Rising health care costs is not the reason why 50% of Americans live below the poverty line and the increase number of poor is not the cause of the increasing health care costs. Nor can you say that the tragedy of disease and death is primarily afflicting the poor. You can’t even say that most of the poor don’t have health insurance or that the lack of health insurance is a problem only for those in poverty.
So I’m not sure why you are trying to make that connection unless you have some statistics you haven’t shared or if you also disagree with Joshua but are trying to change the subject because you don’t know how to defend his statements.
Every Christmas we watch the movie "It's a Wonderful Life". The main character, George Bailey, raises his family in poverty even though he is offered a chance to become rich. The villan, Mr. Potter, is clearly among the top 1%. The point of the movie is that you aren't poor if you have friends. In fact, it could be said that the theme of the movie is that it is preferable to be poor and make the right choices in life than to pursue economic advancement at the expense of the more important things.
I challenge you, living the life of George Bailey is not the same as having a broken arm.
Earlier today the Pope lamented all the "superficial glitter" surrounding Christmas and urged the faithful to embrace the true meaning of Christmas.
I think this is an important lesson that we need to apply to how we live life in general. We have gotten so caught up in trying to consume and amass more and more wealth that we have forgotten the true meaning of life. It is not about our income or wealth. But yet we look at those that are poor, either by choice or because it is forced on them, and we say it is such an awful thing that we shouldn't abide it being so. Maybe the Biblical answer is that more of us should be choosing to be poor and to live more simple lives because it is more in line with what God intends for us. Is it best for us to tell ourselves that God wants us to be wealthy, or at least, not poor. But why is it we believe that? Is there something truly wrong with living a simple life?
Now, to be clear, I believe part of our establishing the Kingdom of God involves pushing back against disease, hunger and injustice. There is so much work to do to stop aids and malaria and bring clean water to Africa. But that is not the situation in America when we talk about 50% of Americans living in poverty.
And I'm also not saying that the poor in America, or those of us that choose to live more simple lives, don't face challenges or live without some luxuries that our neighbor's enjoy. But here is my question: is your life spent trying to hang onto luxuries and conveniences really better than those that live in poverty?
My suggestion is that instead of being appalled that so many Americans "live in poverty" we should start being appalled that so many Americans are enslaved to the American dream!
Hazel, I think you are on to something. The liberal agenda is based on wanting to isolate themselves from the poor and the problems of the poor. And that is why they champion activism that calls for the government to solve the problem. And that may well be why Valerie and Joshua are uncomfortable with so many in our society being classified as "poor".
Wow! Powerful presentation on how free enterprise is morally superior to other systems. They make some great points about the dangers of decoupling success from effort. I liked how the speakers laid out a Biblical foundation for free enterprise and didn't just rely on theory or practical observations.
This video is the most enlightning of any post I've seen by Jim Wallis.
It's not a broadside on "Evangelical Republicans" it is a braodside against Evangelicals period. The Barna Research Group has determined, through polling research, that 4% of our country can be classified as having a Biblical World View. Of those classifying themselves as "conservatives", 10% have a Biblical World View. Of those classifying themselves as "liberals", one half of one percent have a Biblical World View.
I think we can safely identify Evangelical Christians predominantly with conservative thought, even though some would argue that conservatives often have the Biblically correct position on policy but don't always have the Biblically correct priority.